I am also Gen X, but have lived this exact story from the daughter's role. At 16 I was long, lanky, and men stared everywhere I went. I took a trip with my mom to NYC, we were walking down the crowded sidewalks, and suddenly she said, with intense anger in her voice "every man my age is staring at you".
What I thought in my head was: Duh. Of course they are. You're just noticing now?
What I said was: nothing. I pretended I didn't know what she was talking about and gave her a look like she was the weird one, and rolled my eyes.
But also, I was a little surprised. She never made much of an effort to try to look sexy or attractive to men. Much like you describe of yourself, that wasn't her thing, I had never thought she cared or wanted to be looked at. She usually wore her hair short, I was surprised it bothered her. In contrast I was always dolled up, always with my makeup, I remember that day I was wearing a tiny blue and white checked mini dress and knew I looked great.
Here's the part that might make you a bit uncomfortable. Hell it makes me a bit uncomfortable. But so be it, just trying to explain bc I've been in the shoes of your daughter. When I walked around Manhattan in my little mini dress and every man in his 40s as well as all the others stared at me, I FELT LIKE I RULED THE GODDAMN WORLD. I'm sorry to say it, but it is true. It is actually an incredibly powerful feeling. It feels GOOD. I felt like an empress, whose mere subjects could only hope to gaze at me from afar, but who could never hope to touch me. It was a GREAT feeling.
I don't know how else to say that but to say that. Is it real power? No. There's nothing useful you can convert it to. It's totally useless. Is it fair? That some people like that and get to feel what that feels like, while others don't and never will? Hell no. It is good? Nope. All it does is make moms mad and make men look like lechers and make a few girls get to feel like hot shit and all the rest of them feel awful in comparison.
I don't endorse it. But damn it actually is a really good feeling. You know they want what you have, and you have it and they can't have it, and sad to say there's just something in the human brain that releases some kind of hormonal narcissistic, egotistic cocktail when you know you have what everyone wants that transmits as "I rule the world".
So. Anyway, this is probably quite obnoxious to read. Don't worry, no one stares at me like that anymore lol. It's also probably not what you want to picture going on in your daughter's brain. But if she is wearing those little outfits and doing her makeup, it's because she likes the results they get, and it's probably precisely what's in her brain.
My advice is don't worry too much. Men actually don't usually try anything with those types, they just stare. And maybe try not to let her see your discomfort. After I realized it bothered my mom, it made me really uncomfortable looking sexy around her, worrying that men might look at me too much, worried she was grossed out by me, worried she saw me as competition. It's not something we ever talked about again, but it left me uneasy around her for years. And anyway, it'll go by in a blip. This doesn't last long. They still look, but the leering, the knock them down with a frying pan type total hypnosis that seems to occur with me a staring at teens is mostly done by 25. She has the other 70 years of her life to be herself again, and not a shiny object for men to become agog and enraptured by.
Hi Kate. This doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all, and I’m glad you came here to share your point of view. I hope what came across in my story is a ton of nuance and a tangle of emotions.
I also hope it’s clear that I don’t fear my daughters as sexual beings. I want them to have healthy, consensual, joyous sexual experiences. I want them to feel safe to explore their bodies, both with partners, as well as with how others see them moving through the world, as you describe.
I’m glad none of your experiences made you feel unsafe. Based on my lived experiences, as well as the comments here, you’re in the minority. If your takeaway was ruling the goddamn world, I can’t argue with that. 😏
Well the feeling didn't last long, trust me! Lol. And I totally get it. And I haven't felt that feeling in many years now, but I do remember it distinctly, because it's really weird to go almost overnight from being almost invisible, since kids are mostly ignored or viewed as nuisances by everyone but their own family, to one day feeling like you have the power to get the attention of the most powerful people in the world (middle aged men). I thought they were gross then, and it is kind of gross, it's not like I was *interested* in those men, not at all. More just that I knew they were mostly the ones who actually DID rule the world, and it felt good to sort of have something over them, to be able to do something to them that they couldn't control. I think that's why teen girls so often insist on leaving the house half naked. It's not because they're trying to be objects for men or whatever, or wanting anything sexual from them whatsoever, it's bc they like the feeling of having this power over them that they control. Which is newfound and comes along really fast and is SO different than what it was like just a few months ago when you were just an invisible kid. Also it's really not just men, it's everyone who can't help staring at a gorgeous 16 year old girl. It's just much more uncomfortable from men bc people know what they're thinking is often, uh, different.
I appreciate the honest response to a heartfelt post. One additional, complicating factor is that so much of this depends how an individual feels based on how the "leer-er" looks. In my experience, if the person finds the looker attractive, they may welcome the attention even if that identical attention from an unattractive person would be rejected as creepy or offensive. Which puts the onus on the looker... are you attractive enough to pull this off?
Oh what a pleasure to see your take on this. I thought of you while writing because you're a beautiful woman who is also articulate here.
Personally I've always had an easy rapport with beautiful women because of their self-assurance. Rather than intimidating, I always found them refreshingly open and approachable. Part of that is the fact that I love beauty for beauty's sake, and it isn't necessarily tied up with sexuality to me. In fact, I like the company of handsome men as well, despite having no desire to bed them.
I'm not sure Dana has much experience this way. Perhaps she's projecting some of her own insecurities onto her daughter.
Personally, when I see a beautiful teenage girl I'm impressed, and happy to admire her, but I'm not the same as I was 30 years ago, so she just doesn't register as "mate." No, I'm more likely to be inappropriate with her mom.
A hot 40yo woman is like the pinnacle of desirability to me now. It's crazy, because when I was a teenager a 25 year old woman seemed old to me, but now she just seems like a child.
Ah thank God for beautiful women of all ages. Rock on Kate.
Enjoyed your comments. And it’s not as powerless as you think. Men are frequently powerless to say no to beautiful women. There is absolutely power in female beauty, and many of them use it or even abuse it.
And many of them are riled up because the girl in the original post is only 16, girls go through puberty earlier. Many a girl at age 16 has the same body other women have at age 26. It’s common for a man to notice a young woman having a woman’s body.
And as your post confirms, many young women are perfectly aware of the attention they draw. Of course they are, we shouldn’t pretend pretty privilege doesn’t start before their 18th birthday? 😂
I’m a twenty-year-old woman (Gen Z, born 2005) and the leering/catcalling happens to me fairly often, despite me being averagely proportioned (5’5”) and only moderately attractive (though I have natural long curly red hair which apparently is coded as like “freaky” in both senses of the word lol). Uh anyways I always have strong feelings about it whenever I notice it, but whether the feelings are strongly positive (ie “I’m the queen of the world”) or strongly negative (ie “This is terrifying I want to hide get away from me”) kind of alternates unpredictably. I’m guessing it has to do with a combination of how I’m otherwise feeling that day, how safe the area is/who I’m with, and quite honestly how attractive the man doing the leering is lol. Tbh as of now I feel like I won’t miss that specific type of attention when I get older bc the rollercoaster/unpredictability aspect of it is kind of awful
Oh also what you said re: having a form of “control” over powerful men is so real. I’m currently a college student studying computational math/engineering and there are very few other (white, American) women in my major; whenever my male professors grant me extra leniency/extensions/grade boosts that I know the other students aren’t getting it makes the dopamine centers in my brain light up as though I’ve just shot heroin lmfao
It doesn't, it's just the truth. Anyone would get the same dopamine blast in similar circumstances, man woman or child. It just makes us uncomfortable because it's unfair, which it is. But it also is what it is.
Respectfully, many of us don’t get a dopamine blast from this. Many women find it intrusive. Many feel threatened by it. Others have had gazes escalate to confrontations or even assaults.
I’m glad this has never happened to you, but have a read through the comments.
I don’t want to speak for Kryptogal because I don’t know her personally but on her blog she has a (very insightful) post series titled “what it’s like to experience sexual harassment at work” where she talks at length about how she has experienced the negative aspects of it
Your story was far more comforting than the author’s column. You obviously knew what was happening and could be vigilant against dangerous situations. The column, OTOH, seemed almost ambivalent to the danger her daughter faced from maximizing her overt sexual attractiveness – almost “Qué será, será.”
This was a really interesting comment. What’s the worst that happened to you because of all the leering?
I’m curious because if we lived in a world where men leered at young women but did nothing more, would that still be wrong, not because of the harms to the young women, but because of the hurt feelings of their mothers?
99.9% of them do nothing more than stare. Of the other .01%, a small portion might try to say something or initiate an interaction in a friendly manner. Then there's the rest of the .01%, who say something vulgar, degrading, rude, threatening, scary, etc. The ones who do that are almost universally homeless, drunk, insane seeming, or just generally the dregs of society. Almost never normal, job-holding, sober men.
Though it's very subculture dependent...in some, making statements of sexual interest is considered way more normal or expected even. I'm talking about a very white, middle class US culture when I say 99.9% never say anything. But when I went to Italy, almost all men (and even small boys) there actually said things, shouted at you, tried to start interactions, etc. That was just their norm. Certain subcultures in the US are also more like that, often from the lower socioeconomic levels.
There are also guys who engage in cat-calling type harassment like screaming out a car window or at a woman across the street ... but I don't really put that in the same category. Guys who do that are virtually never actually hitting on you, and don't expect anything to come of it. What they're doing is showing off for their friends. Trying to intimidate or embarrass you for the amusement of their friends so they can all laugh. They basically never cat call alone, this is a display to show off how bad ass he is to other males and has little at all to do with the woman. So that's really annoying, being made the object of some game for guys to prove to each other how daring and hardcore they are. If they did it in a disgusting manner meant to degrade and intimidate, I always felt free to flip them off, or sometimes yelled insults right back. Though if you embarrass the guy in front of his friends, sometimes they get really angry. So I'd say that's probably the worst that came of it.
Oh, there were a few gropers and grab-asser guys too, though that's rare and usually only happens under cover of a crowd packed in together. It's also way more likely to be either a very young guy OR a very old like elderly man...not so much the men in the middle, for whatever reason. Actually I've never thought about that before...I think every single guy that either tried to grab my ass or push his hard-on against me in a crowd, was either under the age of 25 or over 70. Kind of weird, now that I think about it.
Another thing that sometimes happens to me when I’m walking on a sidewalk is that men will beep their horns at me from their cars—they usually won’t say anything or even necessarily open their car windows, I guess they just do it so I’ll look in their direction. When this happens it doesn’t really make me feel strong emotions either way, I just sorta get mildly pissed off—primarily bc until I was like 18 (two years ago) I didn’t understand what it was and thought I was just really bad at being a pedestrian and that the honks were trying to warn me about something 😭😭
(Also, the math major in me needs to make a minor nitpick—“99.9 percent” plus “0.01 percent” equals “99.91 percent”— to make 100 it would either need to be “99.9 & 0.1” or “99.99 & 0.01” 😉)
Women stare too. I had a woman stare at me on the train recently for about 15 minutes until I looked her direct in the eyes. She then apologised and rattled on about my colour sense. I get comments from women constantly.
It's pretty simple. Humans are animals too, and men are evolutionarily designed to find fertility attractive. The whole "slut shaming" anti-patriarchy bullshit denies badic biological reality. Men should not act om their urges towards underage girls, but no one should act like it is their fault they have these urges. It's like the urge to pee. There are appropriate times and places to "let loose," but the urge to do so is purely biological. It's not feminine power to flaunt your barely clothed body and then clutch your pearls when people look at it.
It concerns me how many people in the comments are conflating seeing/noticing with leering. A leer is a lingering stare with a sexual undertone. Noticing any person who draws your attention can be done in a subtle way. Think about noticing someone with a physical disability — you see it, but you don’t stare at them. Noticing people you find attractive may have a biological basis, but to think leering is okay is because it has been culturally permitted for some people (I.e. cis men).
Yes! It’s about respect for another individual. I’ve always striven to ensure any glance is so fleeting as to be unnoticeable, no more so now in my 60’s than was the case in my teens. My deciding someone I see is attractive is no excuse to intrude in their personal world.
I wonder how can you distinguish a sexual undertone vs just admiration for something beautiful. We don't really know what's in somebody else's mind and not sure it's right to judge somebody just on the basis of an assumption.
This is the dilemma. I have a strong memory from when I was a young woman, around 18. I had quite a crush on a man in his early 30s. I wore a low cut top, one that I’d made, one day and made sure I was in a place where he’d come across me. When we “happened” to meet, we said hello, started chatting, then I saw that his eyes were constantly drawn to my breasts. I felt defiled. I knew it would never be ME that would attract him, just one part of my body. What I’d set out to do made me feel awful. (I went off him after that!)
That’s a take for sure. But no, sexual urges are not the same as urination. That’s your assumption, but that is not based on science. Attraction is complex and there is some science that says males are evolutionarily more drawn to someone who can reproduce BUT some men are just creeps. Not to mention who actually wants to raise a child with a child??? In this society 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
I remember the first time I was ogled, cornered, and verbally assaulted by a man, probably in his forties. I was 14….. that was 52 years ago. I’ve never forgotten it
To be fair, she describes her daughter as "stunning." Did he was to know she is 16, not 18 or other age? Did he verbally assault her? It's not always creepy. Men of any age appreciate "stunning" .. or beautiful. This is nothing new, women's beauty is celebrated in paintings and film and yes, it's often a young woman.
I see younger men all the time who I find good looking, but you would never know by how I act. I think men are taught that they need to let women and girls know that they find them attractive, whereas women often keep it to themselves. It leads to men thinking they’re the only ones who find younger people attractive, but that’s not the case.
I think men thinking they have the right to obviously stare and comment on much younger woman’s appearance comes from the patriarchy. I think if anything men need to take women’s lead in this and be more discreet. There’s nothing wrong with admiring beauty in someone younger than yourself. But I don’t think it’s good to have the belief that they want to know that you’re doing that or that you should be ridiculous about it. Honestly, I think most men do not do that, and they are just as discreet as women because they understand, it is unwanted behavior.
Although I have seen some women act the same way and being very vocal about telling someone that they find them good looking. Whether it’s a man or a woman doing it, this seems pretty inappropriate unless you’re in a situation where that would be suitable behavior. But if someone’s just walking down the road, or shopping in the store , you don’t need to let them know you find them attractive.
I could spend hours telling the stories. Growing up
In the 80s and 90s, Uugghhh and now I dare you to give me those stares, back then I just wanted to crawl in a hole and shield myself, today I will just call you out and make sure you are aware of exactly what you are doing.
It always amazes me that men cling to the premise that even the seemingly complimentary comments to women about their appearance are somehow welcome and benign. I know women who have experienced both types of comments, positive/negative. Most will tell you, both kinds are equally cringey. Some men observe that women are flattered, appreciative of these things. Maybe a few are, but societal pressure keeps us smiling, blushing, thanking these idiots for their words. ‘’You’re beautiful, or you’re a dog… ‘’, no difference. Different verbiage same fucking MEAT MARKET
Completely agree! You don’t tell other men those same compliments. That’s going to be my new line, would you say that comment to a man, then why me as a woman? That will be interesting to hear responses. There are men who are getting it, good ones out there, yet they are few and that needs a shift.
When I was 16, my dad had me work at a hardware store. It was always the older men (50+) that made me uncomfortable: lingering with a wry smile, asking me what I was doing after work and making sexual jokes. I was always uncomfortable. A fellow cashier and wonderful older lady yelled at one of two of them: “she’s sixteen!” But the only smiled mockingly as they left. This was in 2006 and in a small town. I can’t imagine what our kids will go through today.
I have a nine year old I just took school shopping at Target and it’s so hard to find clothes that aren’t skin tight, or super short. And she’s just beginning to realize how beautiful she is. Hip-popping in the mirror and I am surprised that even at 9, a girl begins to become body conscious. And not from me—I’m definitely not hip poppin’ in the mirror in tight pants and a cut-off shirt.
It’s definitely a balance—I think (from my limited experience). Between letting her be her and sharing limitations with empathic reasoning. That line is fine. I grew up within Christian “purity” culture. Which meant my body was not mine but a male’s and I was taught to be ashamed of it. I don’t want that for my little girls.
Thank you for this essay. It was well written and impactful!
You are not alone. I raised 4 daughters as a single parent. The multiple discussions of letting them wear what they wanted to express themselves, yet be conscious of the type of attention certain outfits would bring, were the same as any household. When they got older, we had very open discussions about things. Support her, follow her, and teach her that Equality is more than just a sticker or a slogan, it is a societal change in perception.
Excellent article, Dana! I can't begin to tell You the number of times I wanted to walk over and slap the leer off a grown man's face who was looking my two daughters up and down, whenever we were out in public after they became young teens.
Both of them were purely beautiful inside and out, and I worried for them because I knew I couldn't be with them every single minute of the day to protect them from the predators of this world. So I talked and talked to them to make them understand that they should never give anyone their full trust from the beginning and that some men would hurt them if they could get them alone -- I know. A sad statement on what our society has become.
I wasn't trying to make them afraid of all men, but I did want them to understand that for every good man they ran across, there was most likely a man who was purely evil. I simply taught them to be careful about who they allowed to get close to them in any situation and to have situational awareness.
They made some mistakes along the way, like so many teen girls are prone to do, but in the end, they found great careers and outstanding husbands, and they raised some fine children of their own.
Thank you for writing this so I didn’t have to. (Speaking to the way it impacts us, the moms).
When my daughter was 10 I wrote a piece like this about all the men I had to fight off in the course of a week. It changed her and how she moved through the world.
I’m still angry!!!
These asshats have no idea the trauma they can cause and the impact their lustful leers have on a child.
We need new social rules of engagement that say, “Stop it! You’re being inappropriate! Your sexually objectifying gaze is altering the brain chemistry of this child!”
“How can I embolden my daughters to own their beauty and move through the world with confidence, while also instilling a sense of caution about how men may respond to their bodies? How does it feel that my male peers increasingly see my underage daughters as sexual beings, but not me?”
And millions of women voted for a lecherous old man who bragged about assaulting women. I cannot understand it.
I'm not staying this is the only thing going on here, and also emphatically not blaming anyone, but I do feel sometimes that women are among the key defenders, educators and propagators of the current (patriarchal) rules and values. I could elaborate more on why i think this is true, and bring some anecdotal evidence, if not data, but that would be for another day.
The conclusion is that we can only move towards a better system together.
To omit the role some women play in supporting the status quo is to be dishonest. That so many not only voted for a self confessed abuser of women, but also support politicians enacting laws that deprive them of the most fundamental autonomy over their own bodies is incomprehensible.
As an old man I know exactly what u are talking about. Some of my friends do this while im trying to have a conversation with them at a restaurant . They don't hear me at all. It pisses me off…like grow up fucker. Yeah, I see it also and I don't like it.
I feel this!! My youngest is 17 and got all the great genetics. She wears what I consider underwear most of the time. I use the word inappropriate more than I want. I also envy her freedom from shame in doing so. I was never comfortable exposing so much even meeting most standards. Recently my daughter has been trying to convince me that I should be comfortable with my midriff and crop tops. (I will only wear one if my leggings are high wasted and no skin.) I sleep in a bra sometimes. It drives her crazy and trying to parent or express this has felt confusing. I'm fit, I take care of myself and I also was raised when tank tops and shorts were not school appropriate and we wore panty hose for Christ's sake!
I became angry when an adult male friend visiting mentioned that my daughter's friend and her "lack of clothing" made him a little uncomfortable. My husband suggested saying something to the girls. More anger! We are in our home, they are comfortable, and supposed to be safe. Guys! This is not their problem. You're the pervert...check yourself.
I cannot stop thinking about the proper boundaries for everyone. The phrase that references women get what they ask for based on what they are wearing!
I've spent most of my adult years facing my own self worth issues after domestic abuse. My daughter has something that I didn't. Body confidence. I'm not willing to take that from her. I'm also doing my best to teach her to see her own power in drawing unwanted attention. And the bad intentions some could have. It is part of being matriarch.
I might just go to the store in my crop top now to give men my angry stares!
What dishonest crap. It IS their problem if they are dressing inappropriately and they know perfectly well it how much power it has. And it's a sin to cause the men to feel they have to work to not notice what they're obviously going to.
Muslim cultures take this too far in the opposite direction, but Western cultures need to dial it back from where we are now.
I thought one of the main objectives of feminism was for women NOT to be viewed as sex objects.
I disagree. It is NOT her daughter's problem. If you were raised to be discomfortable when seeing a beautiful female body, rather than just be grateful for what life is showing you, you might need to really think things through. This is an example on how existing patriarchal/christian-based education fucks ALL of us up, IMO.
PS: And if you ask me i'd say that, to be fair, the same standard would also need to apply to boys wearing just boxers in their house even when women guests are around.
If your daughter is really a knockout don't worry about it -- she'll get used to it and learn how to manage. Don't think I've ever met a truly beautiful woman who ended up scarred by the attention. The few tragic cases I've known got in trouble for hanging out with the wrong crowd and adopting a dysfunctional worldview, not for their looks.
And, btw, if you want to steer her toward mentally healthier types, I'd recommend avoiding the celebration of cluster B-type exhibitionism known as the Fremont Solstice Parade next year.
How about you butt your misogynistic ass out of this conversation?
“She’ll get used to it” is the language abusers use when they groom their victims.
You’re the guy that makes women uncomfortable and want to walk on the other side of the street. It’s almost funny how mansplaining that Dana, and her daughter, shouldn’t be offended is one of the primary reasons so many women say “all men suck”?
Oh look, a male feminist calling another guy creepy. Typical projection.
Some women may get angry when a man speaks honestly, but they respect it more than simping, which is fundamentally deceitful. Why don't you check out what women have to say about male feminists when speaking with each other? It isn't all that flattering.
I'm not looking to impress any women anyway. I'm more concerned for my kids and the damage feminism and other assorted stupidities inflict on society. It's my right and duty to call that stuff out. Silence is complicity, right?
You ain’t looking out for shit dude and I don’t “simp” for anyone — I just have equal respect for women and find it gross that you’re defending the idea of sexualizing children.
You’re not defending against feminism, you’re promoting abuse and control.
He's hoping some gal will notice his virtuous defense of all womankind, and ride his cock for it. Dr Robert Glover talked about “Sneaky Fuckers” and this sort of grandstanding pro-woman fits that bill perfectly
Wait a second, somebody expresses a opinion/experience (ok in a slightly patronizing way, I agree) and the best thing we can do is scream "get out of our group" followed by ad-hominem insults? Come on man, let's try to do better than that.
Read all that he wrote in this thread and try to contain your disbelief. This guy is a creep. You’re the one who needs to do better.
Also, it’s my Substack story. I’m free to block whomever I choose. I haven’t blocked him, or you. But don’t have illusions my online space is a democracy. I’m the queen of who gets to read my content and I will block folks who make me uncomfortable.
Of course you are the ruler of your own place. It seems obvious so not sure why you feel the need to forcefully state it. And you’re right, I didn’t read his other comments (will do), I was referring to this specific one (though I think in theory any comment deserves its own analysis independently on who said it and what was said elsewhere, but I recognize that practice might be different).
In any case, to be clear, I wasn’t trying to defend (or attack) anyone. Was just stating that, _to me_, Nick's answer didn’t feel productive or constructive. Versus for example highlighting the specific ways Bill's comment was wrong or questionable, (or really unclear, IMO) especially for the benefit of other readers. But then again this is just my opinion, ymmv, and I can understand you might not want to waste time with a troll.
Also, thanks for the feedback. Anything more specific on how I could “do better” would be definitely appreciated and given careful thought. Other than that, rest assured that I come in peace, in good faith, and do not want to make anyone uncomfortable.
I do, though this was 50 years ago. I had a friend who was beautiful, very Pre-Raphaelite type. She felt that men were only interested in her because of the way she looked, not in her, so she stopped dating and felt she had to hide herself all the time. She ended up with a man who looked like a bearded version of her. He was lovely, very politically active, always worked hard at that, but never had a paid job, so always lived on the lowest possible income. (None of us who knew him then understand how he got away with it, why he wasn’t sanctioned by the welfare system.)
Though she did paid work, she never really got over her lack of self confidence. I think she could have had a fuller life, if not for the way her beauty made her feel.
Bill Burr has a very funny bit about 50-something divorced men in bars trying to pick up 20-year olds. He says, “when you get older you’re supposed to help young people, not try to f&ck ‘em!”
Thanks for putting into words what I (as a proud father of a beautiful 14 yo) have been struggling to come to terms with. Sure, when other men leer at my wife I do feel pride. But when they do the same to my daughter, my heckles rise.
It fills you with pride that men are ogling your daughter? That’s the weirdest sentence I’d ever read in my life. They aren’t staring at her because of how she “holds her head up”and “moves through the world.” I can guarantee that 😂
I mean, finish the paragraph and I think I’ve explained why I’m proud of her:
“Look at the way she holds her head up, how she moves through the world like she knows every ounce of her worth. It’s so much more than her physical beauty, the way my eldest takes up space and owns it without hesitation or fear.”
You’re literally line reads: “Watching middle-aged men ogle my daughter fills me with pride.” I’m pretty sure I’m not misunderstanding.
And I understand that YOU see how she moves in the world and I don’t deny that she does. I’m telling you that that is NOT what these old men ogling her are seeing. And you said you’re proud of them ogling her. But your pride is because of what YOU see of her. I guarantee you those men are NOT seeing that and they probably go home to a visual of her and….. 😖 and it’s not from her holding her head high 😂 a man doesn’t touch himself and go “ohhhhh yeaaa mmmm confidence 🤤” 😂
Sigh. Fine, if you must be that literal. I’m repeating it as the third of three “watching middle-aged men ogle my daughter” statements and I’m taking back the narrative by shifting the focus back to how brave and amazing my child is with the rest of the paragraph.
But if you want to hate that sentence, I’m not going to change your mind. 😊
My dude. You have four subscribers. This post has reached 8k people with hundreds of likes, 154 comments, and 54 restacks, and 48 new subscribers to my publication. Calm down.
Exactly, I am not looking for subscribers and you are. Yet my comments get a lot of traction on your site. P. S. I am not a dude, just a woman who does not agree with you. I think both of us will be fine. Calm down.😂
Is that an exactly? I don’t think that’s an exactly. “A lot of likes” is relative, and it’s only happening because this story hit a nerve with the creeper red pill side of Substack, which kick-started the flywheel so many, many more folks found and red my story. So yes, a few of them liked your comments/agree with you. One of them proclaimed last night how “all girls should marry by 16, and for life.”
Knuckle-dragging MAGA men like your regressive comments? Okay. That’s still uninteresting.
I remember when this started for me. Probably at 13 or so. I remember my friend’s mom saying to us, as we were shopping for jeans at the mall, “men are looking at you now.”
I lived this feeling & to this day feel the scars from all the ways my mom (a supposed feminist) taught me to be more ladylike. This included nightmares in dressing rooms where my mom watched & judged the options, but it felt like each outfit was being judged for how effective it was in covering my sins. A “sin” was defined as any body part attempting to outgrow childhood. And long before that, there was shaming for playing with the rickrack on my skirt or hanging upside down like a monkey - I still don’t understand what kind of monster would sexualize & shame those activities.
Our moms were complicit. There is no solution to raising better boys that doesn’t involve moms raising daughters to assume their own worth.
I am also Gen X, but have lived this exact story from the daughter's role. At 16 I was long, lanky, and men stared everywhere I went. I took a trip with my mom to NYC, we were walking down the crowded sidewalks, and suddenly she said, with intense anger in her voice "every man my age is staring at you".
What I thought in my head was: Duh. Of course they are. You're just noticing now?
What I said was: nothing. I pretended I didn't know what she was talking about and gave her a look like she was the weird one, and rolled my eyes.
But also, I was a little surprised. She never made much of an effort to try to look sexy or attractive to men. Much like you describe of yourself, that wasn't her thing, I had never thought she cared or wanted to be looked at. She usually wore her hair short, I was surprised it bothered her. In contrast I was always dolled up, always with my makeup, I remember that day I was wearing a tiny blue and white checked mini dress and knew I looked great.
Here's the part that might make you a bit uncomfortable. Hell it makes me a bit uncomfortable. But so be it, just trying to explain bc I've been in the shoes of your daughter. When I walked around Manhattan in my little mini dress and every man in his 40s as well as all the others stared at me, I FELT LIKE I RULED THE GODDAMN WORLD. I'm sorry to say it, but it is true. It is actually an incredibly powerful feeling. It feels GOOD. I felt like an empress, whose mere subjects could only hope to gaze at me from afar, but who could never hope to touch me. It was a GREAT feeling.
I don't know how else to say that but to say that. Is it real power? No. There's nothing useful you can convert it to. It's totally useless. Is it fair? That some people like that and get to feel what that feels like, while others don't and never will? Hell no. It is good? Nope. All it does is make moms mad and make men look like lechers and make a few girls get to feel like hot shit and all the rest of them feel awful in comparison.
I don't endorse it. But damn it actually is a really good feeling. You know they want what you have, and you have it and they can't have it, and sad to say there's just something in the human brain that releases some kind of hormonal narcissistic, egotistic cocktail when you know you have what everyone wants that transmits as "I rule the world".
So. Anyway, this is probably quite obnoxious to read. Don't worry, no one stares at me like that anymore lol. It's also probably not what you want to picture going on in your daughter's brain. But if she is wearing those little outfits and doing her makeup, it's because she likes the results they get, and it's probably precisely what's in her brain.
My advice is don't worry too much. Men actually don't usually try anything with those types, they just stare. And maybe try not to let her see your discomfort. After I realized it bothered my mom, it made me really uncomfortable looking sexy around her, worrying that men might look at me too much, worried she was grossed out by me, worried she saw me as competition. It's not something we ever talked about again, but it left me uneasy around her for years. And anyway, it'll go by in a blip. This doesn't last long. They still look, but the leering, the knock them down with a frying pan type total hypnosis that seems to occur with me a staring at teens is mostly done by 25. She has the other 70 years of her life to be herself again, and not a shiny object for men to become agog and enraptured by.
Hi Kate. This doesn’t make me uncomfortable at all, and I’m glad you came here to share your point of view. I hope what came across in my story is a ton of nuance and a tangle of emotions.
I also hope it’s clear that I don’t fear my daughters as sexual beings. I want them to have healthy, consensual, joyous sexual experiences. I want them to feel safe to explore their bodies, both with partners, as well as with how others see them moving through the world, as you describe.
I’m glad none of your experiences made you feel unsafe. Based on my lived experiences, as well as the comments here, you’re in the minority. If your takeaway was ruling the goddamn world, I can’t argue with that. 😏
Well the feeling didn't last long, trust me! Lol. And I totally get it. And I haven't felt that feeling in many years now, but I do remember it distinctly, because it's really weird to go almost overnight from being almost invisible, since kids are mostly ignored or viewed as nuisances by everyone but their own family, to one day feeling like you have the power to get the attention of the most powerful people in the world (middle aged men). I thought they were gross then, and it is kind of gross, it's not like I was *interested* in those men, not at all. More just that I knew they were mostly the ones who actually DID rule the world, and it felt good to sort of have something over them, to be able to do something to them that they couldn't control. I think that's why teen girls so often insist on leaving the house half naked. It's not because they're trying to be objects for men or whatever, or wanting anything sexual from them whatsoever, it's bc they like the feeling of having this power over them that they control. Which is newfound and comes along really fast and is SO different than what it was like just a few months ago when you were just an invisible kid. Also it's really not just men, it's everyone who can't help staring at a gorgeous 16 year old girl. It's just much more uncomfortable from men bc people know what they're thinking is often, uh, different.
My mom was not girly at all and my sister was extremely girly. They definitely had some of this tension going on.
I get this, and I think my daughter does too. 😊
I appreciate the honest response to a heartfelt post. One additional, complicating factor is that so much of this depends how an individual feels based on how the "leer-er" looks. In my experience, if the person finds the looker attractive, they may welcome the attention even if that identical attention from an unattractive person would be rejected as creepy or offensive. Which puts the onus on the looker... are you attractive enough to pull this off?
Oh what a pleasure to see your take on this. I thought of you while writing because you're a beautiful woman who is also articulate here.
Personally I've always had an easy rapport with beautiful women because of their self-assurance. Rather than intimidating, I always found them refreshingly open and approachable. Part of that is the fact that I love beauty for beauty's sake, and it isn't necessarily tied up with sexuality to me. In fact, I like the company of handsome men as well, despite having no desire to bed them.
I'm not sure Dana has much experience this way. Perhaps she's projecting some of her own insecurities onto her daughter.
Personally, when I see a beautiful teenage girl I'm impressed, and happy to admire her, but I'm not the same as I was 30 years ago, so she just doesn't register as "mate." No, I'm more likely to be inappropriate with her mom.
A hot 40yo woman is like the pinnacle of desirability to me now. It's crazy, because when I was a teenager a 25 year old woman seemed old to me, but now she just seems like a child.
Ah thank God for beautiful women of all ages. Rock on Kate.
Enjoyed your comments. And it’s not as powerless as you think. Men are frequently powerless to say no to beautiful women. There is absolutely power in female beauty, and many of them use it or even abuse it.
And many of them are riled up because the girl in the original post is only 16, girls go through puberty earlier. Many a girl at age 16 has the same body other women have at age 26. It’s common for a man to notice a young woman having a woman’s body.
And as your post confirms, many young women are perfectly aware of the attention they draw. Of course they are, we shouldn’t pretend pretty privilege doesn’t start before their 18th birthday? 😂
I’m a twenty-year-old woman (Gen Z, born 2005) and the leering/catcalling happens to me fairly often, despite me being averagely proportioned (5’5”) and only moderately attractive (though I have natural long curly red hair which apparently is coded as like “freaky” in both senses of the word lol). Uh anyways I always have strong feelings about it whenever I notice it, but whether the feelings are strongly positive (ie “I’m the queen of the world”) or strongly negative (ie “This is terrifying I want to hide get away from me”) kind of alternates unpredictably. I’m guessing it has to do with a combination of how I’m otherwise feeling that day, how safe the area is/who I’m with, and quite honestly how attractive the man doing the leering is lol. Tbh as of now I feel like I won’t miss that specific type of attention when I get older bc the rollercoaster/unpredictability aspect of it is kind of awful
Oh also what you said re: having a form of “control” over powerful men is so real. I’m currently a college student studying computational math/engineering and there are very few other (white, American) women in my major; whenever my male professors grant me extra leniency/extensions/grade boosts that I know the other students aren’t getting it makes the dopamine centers in my brain light up as though I’ve just shot heroin lmfao
I just realized how much of an asshole this makes me sound like oh no 😭😭 I will go to bed now
Don't feel like an asshole for living in the real world. There are very few of us in the math/tech space. It makes us especially "unattainable."
It doesn't, it's just the truth. Anyone would get the same dopamine blast in similar circumstances, man woman or child. It just makes us uncomfortable because it's unfair, which it is. But it also is what it is.
Respectfully, many of us don’t get a dopamine blast from this. Many women find it intrusive. Many feel threatened by it. Others have had gazes escalate to confrontations or even assaults.
I’m glad this has never happened to you, but have a read through the comments.
I don’t want to speak for Kryptogal because I don’t know her personally but on her blog she has a (very insightful) post series titled “what it’s like to experience sexual harassment at work” where she talks at length about how she has experienced the negative aspects of it
Your story was far more comforting than the author’s column. You obviously knew what was happening and could be vigilant against dangerous situations. The column, OTOH, seemed almost ambivalent to the danger her daughter faced from maximizing her overt sexual attractiveness – almost “Qué será, será.”
This is a willful misread of my original story.
The guest is a better judge of the meal than the cook.
You spent far more words on an almost lurid description of her sexual perfection and very little on the dangers in society to such young
women. In essence, you seemed indifferent or oblivious to the principle embodied in the adage “Don’t let your mouth write checks your ass can’t cash.”
Kryptogal’s reply, OTOH, reflected an awareness of the dangerous world in which pubescent beauty exists.
This was a really interesting comment. What’s the worst that happened to you because of all the leering?
I’m curious because if we lived in a world where men leered at young women but did nothing more, would that still be wrong, not because of the harms to the young women, but because of the hurt feelings of their mothers?
99.9% of them do nothing more than stare. Of the other .01%, a small portion might try to say something or initiate an interaction in a friendly manner. Then there's the rest of the .01%, who say something vulgar, degrading, rude, threatening, scary, etc. The ones who do that are almost universally homeless, drunk, insane seeming, or just generally the dregs of society. Almost never normal, job-holding, sober men.
Though it's very subculture dependent...in some, making statements of sexual interest is considered way more normal or expected even. I'm talking about a very white, middle class US culture when I say 99.9% never say anything. But when I went to Italy, almost all men (and even small boys) there actually said things, shouted at you, tried to start interactions, etc. That was just their norm. Certain subcultures in the US are also more like that, often from the lower socioeconomic levels.
There are also guys who engage in cat-calling type harassment like screaming out a car window or at a woman across the street ... but I don't really put that in the same category. Guys who do that are virtually never actually hitting on you, and don't expect anything to come of it. What they're doing is showing off for their friends. Trying to intimidate or embarrass you for the amusement of their friends so they can all laugh. They basically never cat call alone, this is a display to show off how bad ass he is to other males and has little at all to do with the woman. So that's really annoying, being made the object of some game for guys to prove to each other how daring and hardcore they are. If they did it in a disgusting manner meant to degrade and intimidate, I always felt free to flip them off, or sometimes yelled insults right back. Though if you embarrass the guy in front of his friends, sometimes they get really angry. So I'd say that's probably the worst that came of it.
Oh, there were a few gropers and grab-asser guys too, though that's rare and usually only happens under cover of a crowd packed in together. It's also way more likely to be either a very young guy OR a very old like elderly man...not so much the men in the middle, for whatever reason. Actually I've never thought about that before...I think every single guy that either tried to grab my ass or push his hard-on against me in a crowd, was either under the age of 25 or over 70. Kind of weird, now that I think about it.
Another thing that sometimes happens to me when I’m walking on a sidewalk is that men will beep their horns at me from their cars—they usually won’t say anything or even necessarily open their car windows, I guess they just do it so I’ll look in their direction. When this happens it doesn’t really make me feel strong emotions either way, I just sorta get mildly pissed off—primarily bc until I was like 18 (two years ago) I didn’t understand what it was and thought I was just really bad at being a pedestrian and that the honks were trying to warn me about something 😭😭
(Also, the math major in me needs to make a minor nitpick—“99.9 percent” plus “0.01 percent” equals “99.91 percent”— to make 100 it would either need to be “99.9 & 0.1” or “99.99 & 0.01” 😉)
Hah on the math major comment—that math is off for multiple reasons. 😏
Women stare too. I had a woman stare at me on the train recently for about 15 minutes until I looked her direct in the eyes. She then apologised and rattled on about my colour sense. I get comments from women constantly.
It's pretty simple. Humans are animals too, and men are evolutionarily designed to find fertility attractive. The whole "slut shaming" anti-patriarchy bullshit denies badic biological reality. Men should not act om their urges towards underage girls, but no one should act like it is their fault they have these urges. It's like the urge to pee. There are appropriate times and places to "let loose," but the urge to do so is purely biological. It's not feminine power to flaunt your barely clothed body and then clutch your pearls when people look at it.
It concerns me how many people in the comments are conflating seeing/noticing with leering. A leer is a lingering stare with a sexual undertone. Noticing any person who draws your attention can be done in a subtle way. Think about noticing someone with a physical disability — you see it, but you don’t stare at them. Noticing people you find attractive may have a biological basis, but to think leering is okay is because it has been culturally permitted for some people (I.e. cis men).
Yes! It’s about respect for another individual. I’ve always striven to ensure any glance is so fleeting as to be unnoticeable, no more so now in my 60’s than was the case in my teens. My deciding someone I see is attractive is no excuse to intrude in their personal world.
Beautifully stated. Thank you.
I wonder how can you distinguish a sexual undertone vs just admiration for something beautiful. We don't really know what's in somebody else's mind and not sure it's right to judge somebody just on the basis of an assumption.
This is the dilemma. I have a strong memory from when I was a young woman, around 18. I had quite a crush on a man in his early 30s. I wore a low cut top, one that I’d made, one day and made sure I was in a place where he’d come across me. When we “happened” to meet, we said hello, started chatting, then I saw that his eyes were constantly drawn to my breasts. I felt defiled. I knew it would never be ME that would attract him, just one part of my body. What I’d set out to do made me feel awful. (I went off him after that!)
Females should dress modestly, marry for life at 16, or thereabouts, and produce many children
That’s a take for sure. But no, sexual urges are not the same as urination. That’s your assumption, but that is not based on science. Attraction is complex and there is some science that says males are evolutionarily more drawn to someone who can reproduce BUT some men are just creeps. Not to mention who actually wants to raise a child with a child??? In this society 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
*basic, not badic
I remember the first time I was ogled, cornered, and verbally assaulted by a man, probably in his forties. I was 14….. that was 52 years ago. I’ve never forgotten it
Ugh, I hate how many of us have stories like this. 😳
I’m going to be discussing this story Live on The Daily Whatever podcast. You should join us, if you’re free!
To be fair, she describes her daughter as "stunning." Did he was to know she is 16, not 18 or other age? Did he verbally assault her? It's not always creepy. Men of any age appreciate "stunning" .. or beautiful. This is nothing new, women's beauty is celebrated in paintings and film and yes, it's often a young woman.
I see younger men all the time who I find good looking, but you would never know by how I act. I think men are taught that they need to let women and girls know that they find them attractive, whereas women often keep it to themselves. It leads to men thinking they’re the only ones who find younger people attractive, but that’s not the case.
“but you would never know by how I act”, well doesn’t this double standard come from patriarchy?
I think men thinking they have the right to obviously stare and comment on much younger woman’s appearance comes from the patriarchy. I think if anything men need to take women’s lead in this and be more discreet. There’s nothing wrong with admiring beauty in someone younger than yourself. But I don’t think it’s good to have the belief that they want to know that you’re doing that or that you should be ridiculous about it. Honestly, I think most men do not do that, and they are just as discreet as women because they understand, it is unwanted behavior.
Although I have seen some women act the same way and being very vocal about telling someone that they find them good looking. Whether it’s a man or a woman doing it, this seems pretty inappropriate unless you’re in a situation where that would be suitable behavior. But if someone’s just walking down the road, or shopping in the store , you don’t need to let them know you find them attractive.
Bullshit
I could spend hours telling the stories. Growing up
In the 80s and 90s, Uugghhh and now I dare you to give me those stares, back then I just wanted to crawl in a hole and shield myself, today I will just call you out and make sure you are aware of exactly what you are doing.
It always amazes me that men cling to the premise that even the seemingly complimentary comments to women about their appearance are somehow welcome and benign. I know women who have experienced both types of comments, positive/negative. Most will tell you, both kinds are equally cringey. Some men observe that women are flattered, appreciative of these things. Maybe a few are, but societal pressure keeps us smiling, blushing, thanking these idiots for their words. ‘’You’re beautiful, or you’re a dog… ‘’, no difference. Different verbiage same fucking MEAT MARKET
Completely agree! You don’t tell other men those same compliments. That’s going to be my new line, would you say that comment to a man, then why me as a woman? That will be interesting to hear responses. There are men who are getting it, good ones out there, yet they are few and that needs a shift.
100%
When I was 16, my dad had me work at a hardware store. It was always the older men (50+) that made me uncomfortable: lingering with a wry smile, asking me what I was doing after work and making sexual jokes. I was always uncomfortable. A fellow cashier and wonderful older lady yelled at one of two of them: “she’s sixteen!” But the only smiled mockingly as they left. This was in 2006 and in a small town. I can’t imagine what our kids will go through today.
I have a nine year old I just took school shopping at Target and it’s so hard to find clothes that aren’t skin tight, or super short. And she’s just beginning to realize how beautiful she is. Hip-popping in the mirror and I am surprised that even at 9, a girl begins to become body conscious. And not from me—I’m definitely not hip poppin’ in the mirror in tight pants and a cut-off shirt.
It’s definitely a balance—I think (from my limited experience). Between letting her be her and sharing limitations with empathic reasoning. That line is fine. I grew up within Christian “purity” culture. Which meant my body was not mine but a male’s and I was taught to be ashamed of it. I don’t want that for my little girls.
Thank you for this essay. It was well written and impactful!
Ooof. I’m so sorry this happened to you. I’m going to be discussing this story Live on The Daily Whatever podcast. You should join us, if you’re free!
Why are you sorry? Whats the apology about here?
You are not alone. I raised 4 daughters as a single parent. The multiple discussions of letting them wear what they wanted to express themselves, yet be conscious of the type of attention certain outfits would bring, were the same as any household. When they got older, we had very open discussions about things. Support her, follow her, and teach her that Equality is more than just a sticker or a slogan, it is a societal change in perception.
Very wise words. Your daughters are lucky to have you!
Another boomer retard
Another bitter younger man with no empathy or understanding.
Another jack-ass, bored at home, thinking he is something special behind a computer.
Excellent article, Dana! I can't begin to tell You the number of times I wanted to walk over and slap the leer off a grown man's face who was looking my two daughters up and down, whenever we were out in public after they became young teens.
Both of them were purely beautiful inside and out, and I worried for them because I knew I couldn't be with them every single minute of the day to protect them from the predators of this world. So I talked and talked to them to make them understand that they should never give anyone their full trust from the beginning and that some men would hurt them if they could get them alone -- I know. A sad statement on what our society has become.
I wasn't trying to make them afraid of all men, but I did want them to understand that for every good man they ran across, there was most likely a man who was purely evil. I simply taught them to be careful about who they allowed to get close to them in any situation and to have situational awareness.
They made some mistakes along the way, like so many teen girls are prone to do, but in the end, they found great careers and outstanding husbands, and they raised some fine children of their own.
Thank you for understanding, and for speaking out, and for being what sounds like an amazing father. And of course, thanks for commenting and sharing!
Thank you for writing this so I didn’t have to. (Speaking to the way it impacts us, the moms).
When my daughter was 10 I wrote a piece like this about all the men I had to fight off in the course of a week. It changed her and how she moved through the world.
I’m still angry!!!
These asshats have no idea the trauma they can cause and the impact their lustful leers have on a child.
We need new social rules of engagement that say, “Stop it! You’re being inappropriate! Your sexually objectifying gaze is altering the brain chemistry of this child!”
“How can I embolden my daughters to own their beauty and move through the world with confidence, while also instilling a sense of caution about how men may respond to their bodies? How does it feel that my male peers increasingly see my underage daughters as sexual beings, but not me?”
And millions of women voted for a lecherous old man who bragged about assaulting women. I cannot understand it.
Me neither, Paul. It’s all so disheartening.
I'm not staying this is the only thing going on here, and also emphatically not blaming anyone, but I do feel sometimes that women are among the key defenders, educators and propagators of the current (patriarchal) rules and values. I could elaborate more on why i think this is true, and bring some anecdotal evidence, if not data, but that would be for another day.
The conclusion is that we can only move towards a better system together.
To omit the role some women play in supporting the status quo is to be dishonest. That so many not only voted for a self confessed abuser of women, but also support politicians enacting laws that deprive them of the most fundamental autonomy over their own bodies is incomprehensible.
As an old man I know exactly what u are talking about. Some of my friends do this while im trying to have a conversation with them at a restaurant . They don't hear me at all. It pisses me off…like grow up fucker. Yeah, I see it also and I don't like it.
I feel this!! My youngest is 17 and got all the great genetics. She wears what I consider underwear most of the time. I use the word inappropriate more than I want. I also envy her freedom from shame in doing so. I was never comfortable exposing so much even meeting most standards. Recently my daughter has been trying to convince me that I should be comfortable with my midriff and crop tops. (I will only wear one if my leggings are high wasted and no skin.) I sleep in a bra sometimes. It drives her crazy and trying to parent or express this has felt confusing. I'm fit, I take care of myself and I also was raised when tank tops and shorts were not school appropriate and we wore panty hose for Christ's sake!
I became angry when an adult male friend visiting mentioned that my daughter's friend and her "lack of clothing" made him a little uncomfortable. My husband suggested saying something to the girls. More anger! We are in our home, they are comfortable, and supposed to be safe. Guys! This is not their problem. You're the pervert...check yourself.
I cannot stop thinking about the proper boundaries for everyone. The phrase that references women get what they ask for based on what they are wearing!
I've spent most of my adult years facing my own self worth issues after domestic abuse. My daughter has something that I didn't. Body confidence. I'm not willing to take that from her. I'm also doing my best to teach her to see her own power in drawing unwanted attention. And the bad intentions some could have. It is part of being matriarch.
I might just go to the store in my crop top now to give men my angry stares!
Such a delicate balance wanting to protect our girls and also not wanting to project our shame on them. You’re doing great mama <3
What dishonest crap. It IS their problem if they are dressing inappropriately and they know perfectly well it how much power it has. And it's a sin to cause the men to feel they have to work to not notice what they're obviously going to.
Muslim cultures take this too far in the opposite direction, but Western cultures need to dial it back from where we are now.
I thought one of the main objectives of feminism was for women NOT to be viewed as sex objects.
I disagree. It is NOT her daughter's problem. If you were raised to be discomfortable when seeing a beautiful female body, rather than just be grateful for what life is showing you, you might need to really think things through. This is an example on how existing patriarchal/christian-based education fucks ALL of us up, IMO.
PS: And if you ask me i'd say that, to be fair, the same standard would also need to apply to boys wearing just boxers in their house even when women guests are around.
If your daughter is really a knockout don't worry about it -- she'll get used to it and learn how to manage. Don't think I've ever met a truly beautiful woman who ended up scarred by the attention. The few tragic cases I've known got in trouble for hanging out with the wrong crowd and adopting a dysfunctional worldview, not for their looks.
And, btw, if you want to steer her toward mentally healthier types, I'd recommend avoiding the celebration of cluster B-type exhibitionism known as the Fremont Solstice Parade next year.
How about you butt your misogynistic ass out of this conversation?
“She’ll get used to it” is the language abusers use when they groom their victims.
You’re the guy that makes women uncomfortable and want to walk on the other side of the street. It’s almost funny how mansplaining that Dana, and her daughter, shouldn’t be offended is one of the primary reasons so many women say “all men suck”?
Oh look, a male feminist calling another guy creepy. Typical projection.
Some women may get angry when a man speaks honestly, but they respect it more than simping, which is fundamentally deceitful. Why don't you check out what women have to say about male feminists when speaking with each other? It isn't all that flattering.
I'm not looking to impress any women anyway. I'm more concerned for my kids and the damage feminism and other assorted stupidities inflict on society. It's my right and duty to call that stuff out. Silence is complicity, right?
You ain’t looking out for shit dude and I don’t “simp” for anyone — I just have equal respect for women and find it gross that you’re defending the idea of sexualizing children.
You’re not defending against feminism, you’re promoting abuse and control.
He's hoping some gal will notice his virtuous defense of all womankind, and ride his cock for it. Dr Robert Glover talked about “Sneaky Fuckers” and this sort of grandstanding pro-woman fits that bill perfectly
No. Women see him treating us like equals and standing up to ignorant men, and we’re grateful.
Nick is happily married and isn’t trying to get laid here. He’s just trying to make the world a slightly safer place for women. I’m grateful.
Wait a second, somebody expresses a opinion/experience (ok in a slightly patronizing way, I agree) and the best thing we can do is scream "get out of our group" followed by ad-hominem insults? Come on man, let's try to do better than that.
Read all that he wrote in this thread and try to contain your disbelief. This guy is a creep. You’re the one who needs to do better.
Also, it’s my Substack story. I’m free to block whomever I choose. I haven’t blocked him, or you. But don’t have illusions my online space is a democracy. I’m the queen of who gets to read my content and I will block folks who make me uncomfortable.
Of course you are the ruler of your own place. It seems obvious so not sure why you feel the need to forcefully state it. And you’re right, I didn’t read his other comments (will do), I was referring to this specific one (though I think in theory any comment deserves its own analysis independently on who said it and what was said elsewhere, but I recognize that practice might be different).
In any case, to be clear, I wasn’t trying to defend (or attack) anyone. Was just stating that, _to me_, Nick's answer didn’t feel productive or constructive. Versus for example highlighting the specific ways Bill's comment was wrong or questionable, (or really unclear, IMO) especially for the benefit of other readers. But then again this is just my opinion, ymmv, and I can understand you might not want to waste time with a troll.
Also, thanks for the feedback. Anything more specific on how I could “do better” would be definitely appreciated and given careful thought. Other than that, rest assured that I come in peace, in good faith, and do not want to make anyone uncomfortable.
I do, though this was 50 years ago. I had a friend who was beautiful, very Pre-Raphaelite type. She felt that men were only interested in her because of the way she looked, not in her, so she stopped dating and felt she had to hide herself all the time. She ended up with a man who looked like a bearded version of her. He was lovely, very politically active, always worked hard at that, but never had a paid job, so always lived on the lowest possible income. (None of us who knew him then understand how he got away with it, why he wasn’t sanctioned by the welfare system.)
Though she did paid work, she never really got over her lack of self confidence. I think she could have had a fuller life, if not for the way her beauty made her feel.
You’re a gross bastard
He really is.
Bill Burr has a very funny bit about 50-something divorced men in bars trying to pick up 20-year olds. He says, “when you get older you’re supposed to help young people, not try to f&ck ‘em!”
My favorite quote ever😆👏
Thanks for putting into words what I (as a proud father of a beautiful 14 yo) have been struggling to come to terms with. Sure, when other men leer at my wife I do feel pride. But when they do the same to my daughter, my heckles rise.
Yep, our children lead the way. 🔥
Truly, every single day…
It fills you with pride that men are ogling your daughter? That’s the weirdest sentence I’d ever read in my life. They aren’t staring at her because of how she “holds her head up”and “moves through the world.” I can guarantee that 😂
I mean, finish the paragraph and I think I’ve explained why I’m proud of her:
“Look at the way she holds her head up, how she moves through the world like she knows every ounce of her worth. It’s so much more than her physical beauty, the way my eldest takes up space and owns it without hesitation or fear.”
You’re literally line reads: “Watching middle-aged men ogle my daughter fills me with pride.” I’m pretty sure I’m not misunderstanding.
And I understand that YOU see how she moves in the world and I don’t deny that she does. I’m telling you that that is NOT what these old men ogling her are seeing. And you said you’re proud of them ogling her. But your pride is because of what YOU see of her. I guarantee you those men are NOT seeing that and they probably go home to a visual of her and….. 😖 and it’s not from her holding her head high 😂 a man doesn’t touch himself and go “ohhhhh yeaaa mmmm confidence 🤤” 😂
Sigh. Fine, if you must be that literal. I’m repeating it as the third of three “watching middle-aged men ogle my daughter” statements and I’m taking back the narrative by shifting the focus back to how brave and amazing my child is with the rest of the paragraph.
But if you want to hate that sentence, I’m not going to change your mind. 😊
Exactly. Hold yourself out as a sex object, be viewed as a sex object.
ChiChi, this is some un-nuanced, uninteresting commentary. You don’t have to agree with all the views I e expressed here but this is just so basic.
I sure have a lot of likes to my comments. Seems a lot of folks see my points.
My dude. You have four subscribers. This post has reached 8k people with hundreds of likes, 154 comments, and 54 restacks, and 48 new subscribers to my publication. Calm down.
Exactly, I am not looking for subscribers and you are. Yet my comments get a lot of traction on your site. P. S. I am not a dude, just a woman who does not agree with you. I think both of us will be fine. Calm down.😂
Is that an exactly? I don’t think that’s an exactly. “A lot of likes” is relative, and it’s only happening because this story hit a nerve with the creeper red pill side of Substack, which kick-started the flywheel so many, many more folks found and red my story. So yes, a few of them liked your comments/agree with you. One of them proclaimed last night how “all girls should marry by 16, and for life.”
Knuckle-dragging MAGA men like your regressive comments? Okay. That’s still uninteresting.
No. I didn’t say that. Im a woman and when I was younger I was ogled at wearing a t shirt and shorts. A creep is going to creep regardless.
I remember when this started for me. Probably at 13 or so. I remember my friend’s mom saying to us, as we were shopping for jeans at the mall, “men are looking at you now.”
Yep, this sounds about right.
I mean, it’s not right, at all. But it seems about the age when it all starts.
I wish I could have made it to 13. My earliest vivid memory of that shit is 11.
I lived this feeling & to this day feel the scars from all the ways my mom (a supposed feminist) taught me to be more ladylike. This included nightmares in dressing rooms where my mom watched & judged the options, but it felt like each outfit was being judged for how effective it was in covering my sins. A “sin” was defined as any body part attempting to outgrow childhood. And long before that, there was shaming for playing with the rickrack on my skirt or hanging upside down like a monkey - I still don’t understand what kind of monster would sexualize & shame those activities.
Our moms were complicit. There is no solution to raising better boys that doesn’t involve moms raising daughters to assume their own worth.